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26 December 2007

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Hi J.

"We ought not threaten non-nuclear nation-states with nuclear weapons, as we did against Iraq in 1991 and 2003.Retaliating against chemical-biological weapons with nuclear weapons is not justifiable"

Why? If the threat of a nuclear holocaust causes Dictator X to keep his nerve gas and superbugs out of American cities and off of the battlefield, then our nuclear deterrent is working as intended.

I'm not high on giving unsavory world leaders a green light on using CB weapons by promising them no first use of nukes.

Zenpundit, you ask "why" and then supply a positive answer for "why not":

If the threat of a nuclear holocaust causes Dictator X to keep his nerve gas and superbugs out of American cities and off of the battlefield,

but that is oversimplifying the situation. Is that what happened? Was that really the thing that kept "Dictator X" from doing ___ awful thing? Moreover, did anything else happen because of the nuclear threat, and what is the blowback from that? It seems that J's argument (via Schelling?) is that it muddies their use as a deterrent against nuclear-capable countries--which is where we really need them. It also encourages more countries to pursue nuclear capabilities.


zen: the point is that nonproliferation efforts will eventually fail; we are dealing with sixty-year-old technology, after all. We need to create a strategic environment in which the possession of nuclear weapons is a liability rather than an asset.

In J's proposal, those without nuclear weapons are immune from nuclear attack, while those that have them are fair game. Since newcomers are obviously at a disadvantage to the established states in terms of numbers, readiness, and accuracy, there will be a long window in which having nuclear weapons leaves you vulnerable both militarily and politically. If an "immunity clause" were built into the NPT non-nuclear states, even those who are avowed enemies of the West, would have a powerful incentive not to have any traces of weapons programs on their record.

Avoiding both proliferation and use of nuclear weapons should be at the forefront of US nuclear policy. Proliferation because it is an obvious threat to US security and the use because it undermines non-proliferation. The NPT will not survive a day if any nuclear state successfully uses nuclear weapons to threaten a non-nuclear opponent, no matter what the circumstances.

Hello,
I promised myself, being entirely ignorant of these technological matters that I wouldn't enter the debate on nuclear stuff, so here goes- with my pennies-worth:
For a start, nobody will warn the other side that they are about to launch Armageddon (what would be the point?). It will just happen.
Of course, the bottom line is: will defences against nuclear attack work? No: there are too many missiles on both sides. There are no defences.
On the other side of the coin is that, supposing the equally impossible occurs and we all decide to disarm, how do we safely dispose of all that nuclear stuff? We can't.

If I'm wrong (and I fervently hope that I am) someone with the patience to tell me could alleviate my fears for our future. Meanwhile, I'll have another mince pie, and a cup of tea.

Regards...

zen - Both James and Saheli have more than adequately addressed my points of view. To directly answer your one question, no one in the defense policy world believes that chem or bio weapons - particularly in the hands of a nation-state - is equivalent to that of a nuclear weapon. You can't use nukes to threaten terrorists, so the idea of retaliating for a terrorist CB hit on a city with nukes is not logical. I defy you to map out a scenario where any nation might threaten an American city with CB weapons and avoid being destroyed with US conventional capabilities. Usually, it's when US troops are invading a country with CB weapons that there is the concern about being hit by such weapons (e.g., Iraq 1991 and 2003).

No one is giving any country the "green light" to use CB weapons against American troops or interests. It's just that there are lots of diplomatic options and conventional ordnance (in case diplomacy fails) to address those cases without resorting to the paper tiger threat of nukes.

Thanks for that.
Regards...

Hi J.

"No one is giving any country the "green light" to use CB weapons against American troops or interests."

I agree that CB are not in the same order of magnitude as nukes but neither are they regarded as strictly conventional weapons. And for good reasons given their lack of discrimination and the extended suffering they cause. This is hardly a new presumption on my part as it goes back to the end of the First World War

The Third Reich had enormous stockpiles of poison gas but even Hitler shrank from using them because the prospect of Allied retaliation in kind against German cities was too terrible to contemplate.

Conventional weapons, even high-precision munitions or bunker-busting superbombs are fully capable of flattening enemy cities; but flattened cities are an outcome that I would argue that leaders of states accept a priori if they choose to enter into a war with the United States. Having entered a war using that kind of calculus and having a "no-first use" guarantee of nukes, what then restrains their use of CB weapons ? Particularly if their use might make the difference between regime survival or defeat and removal from power ?

"...lack of discrimination and the extended suffering they cause." Oh come on, zen, drop the arms control lingo and take a hard look at CB weapons. Ain't nothing special about them except their particular fill. Modern aerial bombs, cruise missiles, WP artillery, they all fit the discription you give.

We all thought that Saddam would use CB weapons in 1991 and 2003 as a "regime survival" tool, didn't happen. The fact is this - US conventional superiority guarentees a massive conventional attack against an adversary's infrastructure in the event of CB warfare. You don't need nukes. We only needed nukes as a retaliatory threat against the Soviet Union. Against modern small powers, that calculus doesn't work. Time to upgrade the policy.

Hi J.

No reliance upon lingo here. If Israel had used mustard or chlorine gas against Hezbollah in their last dust-up I'm sure that would have been regarded as beyond the pale ( and rightly so).

"Ain't nothing special about them except their particular fill. Modern aerial bombs, cruise missiles, WP artillery, they all fit the discription you give."

Then you are fine then, I take it, with the United States employing CB weapons against military targets or terrorists.

If not, why not?

"Then you are fine then, I take it, with the United States employing CB weapons against military targets or terrorists."

As a matter of fact, yes, yes I am. I've stated so several times in this blog that I see nothing wrong with using CB weapons or having an offensive CB weapon program. Weapon systems aren't immoral, their use against noncombatants are. Using unconventional weapons against military targets (to include terrorist groups) is fundamentally okay with me, although I would use conventional weapons first as a general rule (just easier for conventional troops to use). It's just those damn pesky arms control treaties that prevent their use.

A major move would be to lean on the UK and France to denuclearise. Is there any reason for them to have nukes beyond reasons of prestige?? I've never heard a real case articulated.... Essentially they want them for the same reason that would-be proliferators want them, to be part of the exclusive club and because of perceived national pride, etc. Rather hypocritical, what?

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