Rapping MRAP

The little company with the Big Idea to develop Mine Resistant Ambush Vehicles is struggling to get its contracts from the U.S. government. Its initial order for 455 vehicles was smaller than expected, and surprise surprise, the Big Boys have awakened as to this great source of income opportunity to protect our soldiers and Marines. From The Street:

Fierce competition for a big government armored-truck deal is dimming Force Protection's glow.

The Ladson, S.C., military-vehicle maker has been the biggest winner so far in the Army's mine-resistant, ambush-protected vehicles contract. But as the MRAP show goes on, Force Protection is sharing more and more of the spotlight with its rivals.

Navistar -- once viewed as a minor character at best -- recently grabbed the largest single MRAP order placed so far. Other players like Armor Holdings and Oshkosh Truck, as well as an upstart launched by Force Protection's founder, are poised to crowd the stage as well.
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Now, Millward looks for two Force Protection rivals to land new contracts in a matter of days. Notably, Millward believes that General Dynamics -- Force Protection's joint-venture partner -- may have already passed performance tests and could soon snag a big contract on its own. Then, she feels that Armor or Oshkosh could announce a major award right after that.

It seems that the Marine Corps also likes the BAE version of the MRAP, with an announcement for a $214 million contract for its vehicles. And now perhaps you'll see my concern over rushing to judgment over a "good idea" that the field has - the military-industrial complex isn't going to get rolled that easy, so now we're going to have four or five different vehicle systems entering the inventory, all with unique spare parts and maintenance contracts, costing billions more than the more reasonable solution. What's that solution, you ask? Doing it the old fashioned way - getting out of the vehicles.

U.S. armored vehicles stand idle on the edge of western Baqouba's apartment blocks. The soldiers who normally ride in them have left on foot patrols -- a simple, but apparently effective, tactic being used against insurgents planting increasingly large and devastating bombs deep underground.

Bringing troops onto the streets in bloody places such as Baqouba carries some new risks, including small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades that armored vehicles can usually repel. But it's designed to avoid a more serious threat: the buried explosives that can take out Humvees and the bigger Strykers that can hold up to 10 soldiers.

The weight of a single soldier is insufficient to trigger such bombs, which may be planted 10 feet underground and packed in makeshift casings such as refrigerators. Insurgents are hesitant to "waste" a large bomb by triggering it with remote control to kill a single soldier, said U.S. officers involved in an offensive in the capital of Diyala province northeast of Baghdad.

Insurgents lie in wait to detonate the explosives manually. "They'll let you drive over it nine, 10 times, and on the 11th time, they pull the cord," said Maj. Doug Baker, the executive officer for the 5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment

The foot patrols have been credited with preventing heavy U.S. casualties in the battle for Baqouba. U.S. deaths from the bombs -- which the military calls improvised explosive devices, or IEDs -- dropped in Diyala from at least 16 in May before the 10,000-troop offensive to just two so far this month, according to an Associated Press count based on Defense Department reports.

This is why you don't rush into knee-jerk procurement actions. There is a rationale for the process of examining non-material options before going with expensive hardware solutions. I'm sure that our fine military leaders will figure this all out, they don't need any advice from small-time defense analysts such as myself. But right now, they're currently too busy ordering up more armor to strap to the MRAPs, since the MRAP armor won't stop the explosively formed penetrators (EFPs). Details, always details.

Comments

[Jonathan Baum]

You can't escort convoys on foot.

[NVH]

No you can't, but you can also escort 'em to the outskirts and give them six different ways to go once they hit the city and multiple targets for terrorists to track, and change tactics, like foot patrols, and last I heard the convoys were'nt the ones getting hit, it was the smaller mobile foot patrols, and now dismounted and spread out, it's less bang for the buck, which besides the Koran is all AQ is teaching them in deploying these things...good luck JB, nice add in National Defense this month.

[J.]

And I'm not sure that MRAPs were designed to be escorts for convoys. Isn't that the job for Strykers? What's the requirement here? Are MRAPs supposed to get squads around the battlefield without injury or are they supposed to be generic "all-purpose" gun carriers? Problem with "all-purpose" projects - they tend to be gold-plated and, while doing everything okay, don't do any one thing well.

[Jonathan Baum]

You can do anything with an MRAP that you could have done with a Hummer. It's just that the MRAPs are safer for the personnel riding inside. I can't speak about the other models but the MaxxPro not only features the V-shaped bottom and special side and top armor but also has special seats and spall liners to protect the soldiers and marines. Because of their larger size, the MRAP can carry more men or cargo (and function better as an ambulance, if that's what you want) and has more room for a RCWS instead of a turret. I'll be the first to admit that they are pricey but this kind of protection never comes cheap.

[CBH]

Jonathan Baum -
I know they're heavy, but are these MRAPs heavy enough to significantly cut down on Traumatic Brain Injuries, and if they are, aren't there substantial disadvantages to such weight? If you can't tell, the conversation in here has been quite skeptical of the MRAPs - it looks like an overpriced toy that will find limited practical use.

[Grandjester]

"You can do anything with an MRAP that you could have done with a Hummer."

Really? So it can be airdropped then? How does it do fording muddy rivers? How will it turn in the tight confines of an urban environment? How will it replace the 30 odd variants of the Humvee? How about that tremendous increase in weight? How about issues with the separate chassis and crew compartment? What about lateral blast from EFP's? Are they going to be produced in the numbers of the Humvee (tens of thousands)? Many IED's far exceed blasts tested, how large a charge can they actually withstand? How do the do in deep sand? Snow? Will they have any relevent mission beyond Iraq? What is the real cost per unit? What if the insurgents change tactics? What does it take to pull one of these fuckers out of a ditch, as I noted, looks a little heavier than a Humvee?

Sorry, just not buying it (an I wish my tax dollars weren't either).

Jonathan, I realize you are a professional shill, but you will have to do MUCH better with our little group of skeptics.

[J.]

Hey, let's not scare Jonathan away. I appreciate his point of view, and it's healthy to have an open dialogue on this important issue. GJ, you bring out a lot of good points that I should have mentioned. I will state (again) for the record, I support the idea of an MRAP for specialized missions, but certainly not as a general support vehicle (a requirement in which the HMMWV has performed very well).

[Jonathan Baum]

Some good questions here. First of all I should indeed point out, in the spirit of full disclosure, that I work for (and as a Member of Kibbutz Sasa, am a part-owner of) Plasan Sasa. We are the armoring partner of International who will manufacture the MaxxPro. For those who don't know, the Marines have ordered 1200 of these vehicles. To answer some of your questions:
What helps protect the soldiers from internal injuries caused by explosive accelerations or kinetic shock are the systems we use to isolate the passenger seats in the compartment (they are suspended and not in contact with the walls or floor) and in the cab, where the seats rest on our patented collapsible base, which nullifies upwards accelerations caused by mines. All I can say to the skeptics out there is that we here in Israel and the US DOD at Aberdeen have tested the living shit out of these vehicles and their armor and protective systems. I'm not at liberty to tell you exactly what kind of charge they have been tested against, but I think you would all be surprised just how large a charge we test with. These vehicles are VERY robust.
As to their maneuverability, they match that of a 4x4 or 6x6 truck. The hull is actually built upon a chassis that was designed to take more weight than we put on it, so they are pretty good off-road, and do well in sand and loose earth. Their fording capacity is far greater than that of a Hummer. To my knowledge, they haven't been tested in the snow yet. They are not air-dropable. Their turning circle matches that of a Stryker, more or less. Yes, to pull one of these fuckers out of a ditch, you will need another big fucker.
Again, I can't speak about the other MRAP models, but without the extra doo-dads like guns, radios and jammers, the MaxxPro will set back American tax payers to the tune of about $500,000. This model, by the way, is one of the cheaper ones, compared to a Buffalo or Cougar.
I won't pretend I don't have an interest in seeing the success of the MRAP program, but you all should know that we here at Plasan have poured every ounce of knowledge and creativity we possess into building the safest vehicle we could come up with, given the parameters of the program.

[Grandjester]

In the spirit fo full disclosure, I should point out that I am not a professional pain in the ass, it is merely a gift I share with my friends here at AG.

Some really good answers Jonathan. While I am convinced as to the utility of the type in specific mission, I had a buddy that was a LEFTenant in the South African Army who was in a V hull that ran over a small mine with nary a scratch, I am just unsure about the level of investment being made as sort of a knee-jerk response to the cries of unarmored humvees.

The USMC has already sunk millions into the EFV/AAAV, which more clearly fits their true mission (begs another question for you, how many Maxxes can fit on an LCAC?) and will be at 10 Billion plus, so throwing more money at an off profile mission vehicle still seems steep to me.

[NVH]

Look I have no doubt, like J, it'll do the job they want, will NOT replace the HMMWV, and that ol Johnny B here is telling the truth. Now let's get back to good old DoD acquisition principles, they still have to test it, to other standards, not that it will stop procurement by the Marines, but that'll show the truth in an ever more increasing light. And let's not forget, you can't air drop, but you also can't pack as many in with the HMMWVs or even carry it in as many airplanes as the HMMWVs. But then, it's designed for those times when we get ourselves up a creek with an insurgency, so all the logistics will be in place to deal with that then. Plus, think of all the really cool celebrity vehicles that JB will be able to protect in Hwood after their performance in the dwindling insurgency ( you heard they only killed 1200 civilians this quarter, right? ) Winding it down for the '08 election folks, Obama and his $32 million can go right to hell...

[Jonathan Baum]

Funny that you should mention the EFV. Just today there was a story in Defense Newsstand on how the House Armed Services seapower and expeditionary forces subcommittee was bitching and moaning to the Marines about how the EFV isn't IED-proof. But comparing the EFV and the MRAP is like comparing apples and baseballs.
Leaving the technical issues aside, the issue here under discussion seems to be is it worth it to buy so many of these vehicles, taking into account what the possible future missions of America's ground forces might be? My own personal view - which could indeed be skewed by the fact that I live in the Middle East and have had military experience in Lebanon and the Intifada - is that Iraq could well be the model of future conflicts for Western armies in general and the US in particular. As America's advantages in firepower, C4RI, sensors, space, etc., increase, it seems that America' enemies will have to resort to unsymmetrical tactics and strategy to inflict demoralization and attrition on US forces. I think all of the "issues" raised about, say, a possible war with China are so much propaganda and are danger of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. A conflict between the US an China would be a real economic catastrophe and should be easily avoided since there aren't any real issues between the two nations that need be solved by force.
No, I think it much more likely that in coming decades,America's warriors will be seeing a lot more of the third world shit holes like Baghdad, Mogadishu or even New Orleans (just kidding!). In such a strategic environment, having a large fleet of MRAPs makes sense to me.

[Jonathan Baum]

Looks like the 5-sided circus agrees:
http://tinyurl.com/2nygze

[Grandjester]

Well, THAT certainly didn't make my day.

But I suppose someone is happy:

Navistar up $2.85
Force Protection up $1.65

[Christopher Bitner Hayes (CBH)]

Jonathan -
I for one would be very interested in having you in here frequently. It's nice to have somebody "in the business" speaking up, because it's just too easy to rag on anybody getting a check. Everything is made by somebody though.

Most of the questions I have about the MRAP are along the same lines as Grandjester, and obviously some of them are likely to be unanswerable in this forum. It's no longer worth debating if they should be bought - question now is how many will we buy, at what cost, and to what advantage. Of course, when I refer to MRAPs, I can only expect you to answer about the MaxxPro - you're not going to offend anybody pointing out weaknesses of competing products. They can come defend themselves if they'd like. I'm guessing J. wouldn't mind the increased volume in his site!

Do these have a self-leveling/ winching capability if they end up in a hole or flipped over, and if so, how long does it take to get one on its feet? (I'm picturing the new game being "flip the MRAP and pick guys off as they climb out, then go strip the sucker for anything useful".

What's the "per-impact" cost for the collapsible base that protects from impact concussion (good idea, by the way), and is that type of repair something that can be done quickly in the field, or is it a "pack it up and ship it home" type of repair?

How do these hold up to heat, like getting soaked in home-made napalm, or thermite when the enemy figures that out (or gets supplied by outside actors)?

If this thing is the shiz-nit, great. Let's buy more. If it's a one-trick pony, or has an achilles heel that will cost a million per-unit to cover, then maybe they should be limited to a short production run and more pin-point operations. Either way, a mandated standardization between manufacturers on at least the major components would be a bad thing for your company in the short run, but would it be anything but good for motorpools in the field, and for me as the taxpayer? These are just a few of my questions. Is all this in a "FAQ" for the press on a website somewhere?

My trademark in here has been smartmouthing, but I'm really interested in knowing about these MRAPs, so I'll keep my cracks for later. If you choose to skip on replying, though, don't worry; we'll make up the difference by talking about you when you're gone. Got shot on New Orleans - how does the MaxxPro do in enclosed football stadiums during hurricanes? As for China vs. US, the only way we'll end up there is if the NeoCons and their friends decide they want us there like they wanted us in Iraq and want us in Iran (where we'll be soon, I have no doubt).

[Jonathan Baum]

Thank you Christopher. Of course we at Plasan have the advantage of building defensive systems. It gives us some sort of moral advantage.

It's getting late here, but to answer some of your questions:
To the best of my knowledge, our R&D guys haven't yet napalmed one of our trucks. It's not what we do.
Items like winches tend to be installed by the end users, although I can tell you that we had to recommend to the Marines when we designed the troop carrier version of the MTVR that there ought to be a ladder on the back. They thought that was a good idea! We do offer automatic fire extinguishing systems and an NBC overpressure system. All hydraulic operated systems have manual back-ups. The Marines really liked that we added some storage compartments for personal items.

I definitely feel your pain when it comes to standardization. It's going to increase costs over the long run by complicating the supply and spare parts chain, to say nothing of having to train mechanics to deal with up to 7 different models. On the other hand, if you want these things in a hurry, different models is the price of admission. For a historical perspective, look how many models of armored fighting vehicles the Germans used in WWII. They seemed to manage.

I don't know about football stadiums but I'm originally from Philadelphia and I'd just love to drive one of these big boys down Broad Street and impress the homies.

Finally - at least for tonight - while I'm not really involved in American politics and realizing that this is a progressive (if that's the right word) forum, we should remember that conservatives are not the only ones who start wars. Remember Vietnam? I'm not defending Bush, mind you. Just pointing out that strategic mistakes are not the exclusive domain of any one ideology.

Gotta hit the sack. I'm driving to Tel Aviv tomorrow and am getting up bright and early.

[Grandjester]

Jeebus CBH, don't be such a suck up, using your real name and everything! LOL!

We are keeping Jonathan up late, so I will merely leave two pithy responses:

"For a historical perspective, look how many models of armored fighting vehicles the Germans used in WWII. They seemed to manage." Um, not so much.

"we should remember that conservatives are not the only ones who start wars. Remember Vietnam?" Our involvement began during the Eisenhower administration, still a Republican last I checked.

Really I guess it comes down to putting a price on a soldiers life. People howl and complain that you can do no such thing while the DoD, Executive, Congress and to a lesser extent the defence contractors do it everyday.

[Christopher Bitner Hayes (CBH)]

GJ -
I guess I did sound suck-uppy. Oops. "Bite me Jonathan!"
Is that better? (just kidding Jonathan - I hope your trip to Tel Aviv tomorrow is peachy, and I hope you have sweet dreams tonight while you sleep. If I were there I'd get you a cup of warm milk and a teddy bear to make sure you slept well. Night Night. )

Regarding Conservatives vs. Progressives and their involvement or incitement of wars - I think both sides have a crappy record. Previous to recent times, conservative also meant non-interventionist. I'm a PaleoConservative myself, and I'll be going door-to-door for Ron Paul if it looks like it'll help. He's more libertarian than me, but with him I know what I'm getting because he's honest.

The only difference between the Two Parties at the moment are their names. It's Barbara Streisand vs. Rush Limbaugh - same person, different wig. The Democrats are far from the classical definition of Liberal, and the Republicans are anything but Conservative. They're both the Big Money Big Power parties, and they've done a good job entrenching their positions. Damn them all.

For the record, I decided to start using my full name on here this weekend. I tried to pull together some of my half-decent funny posts, but looking for CBH with google wasn't working. I can find stuff with "christopher bitner hayes" a lot easier, though I'm still hesitant to put my full name on a site where people I talk trash about are trained to use weapons. Oh well. Them's the breaks. (note to psychos - all ticking packages will be marked "return to sender")
Postcards are welcome, and may be addressed to:
Santa's Workshop
Attn: Christopher Bitner Hayes
North Pole, Canada 1313-666

[Grandjester]

Yeah, that google thingy is pretty cool, this Grandjester fellow gets around... Does this mean you are going to strike out and blog yourself? Hope so, always enjoy reading your posts here.

[NVH]

"A Star is Born"

[NVH]

As for the MRAP, well being in DoD acquisitions, you really get to see what gets the path of least resistance and what doesn't. So you've got MRAPs that will save lives and limbs against IEDs (JB, still a skeptic on the whole TBI piece), but they'll come in 7 models with 7 different support trains, all different, none the same. In the long run that's going to cost a shit load, but then I've fought on this site before about putting more money into Defense so, fine, since none of the typical acquisition routes would do any better anyway, and would definitely fall into the abyss for 5-7 years before fielding anything, especially if the testers get ahold of it. Talk about sticklers.
JB-keep the head low and powder dry there in Tel Aviv, my perception is that city is fairly more stable than the rest of Israel, given the situation, is that a correct assumption -- also discussing the NBC option on your MRAP, can you elaborate, as I am interested in the next filtration system we'll have to get stock listed and start tracking replacement of...thanks...

[Christopher Bitner Hayes (CBH)]

I've debated about starting a blog for a while, but the only credible idea I've had is to start a PaleoConservative themed blog (well, anti-status quo anyway), and just link in articles that are funny. I like the military topics, but I lack the chops to do so like J. does, so I'll be in here indefinitely I believe.

[Robot Economist]

I think most people here know how I feel about the MRAP, so I will just say this as someone on the inside of the Army secretariat:

The Army has been taking its plan to purchase an MRAP very seriously. There have been dozens of tests so far, many of which have been observed by the highest levels of the Army brass.

Since the Army can't afford to replace all HMMWVs, the brass has to decide what role the MRAP would fill before they decide on numbers. That and sustainment is still a bit of a question mark, especially with gas prices where they are today.

[Grandjester]

RE,

Good point, wonder if Jonathan can tell us if BioDiesel or Hybrid are future options for this platform. I seem to recall there was some talk of the next-gen/FCS vehicle being a hybrid but of course that was before all the current unpleasantness.

[Christopher Bitner Hayes (CBH)]

Anybody know if the military has any of their diesels running SVO (straight vegetable oil)? BioDiesel runs the same as petroleum diesel - it's just made out of something organic. The only time a vehicle needs something particular to run a 100% biodiesel is if the engine systems are really touchy. The other option, however, is to have a parallel fuel system that contains unrefined vegetable oil. The way it works is you get the engine started on diesel, let it get good and hot, then it switches to the oil. The heat in the block thins the oil down enough that it burns the same (or very similar to) regular diesel. Then before you shut down it switches back over to diesel so it's ready to start the next time (that's with a fancy system - most of the people running it switch it manually). The main advantage to this is the ability to use a wide variety of fuels - any vegetable oil will work, though some are better than others. Put a diesel running as a generator in a hybrid (like Mercedes has been playing with), and you've got an extremely powerful system (electric motors beat combustion engines for torque any day) with decent mileage and can refill from a variety of sources. Not an enormous advantage, but enough to possibly be worth it, and it would score some PR brownie points.

Personally, I don't see biodiesel or ethanol as long term fixes, and will probably be long term problems as we already have shortages of usable topsoil in the US because of industrialized farming techniques. There were riots in Mexico last year when U.S. ethanol producers snatched up a lot of corn that would have ended up in Mexico - signs of things to come I believe.

[NVH]

HEY, there's plenty of oil, we just need to be able to drill it. Tell that to Pelosi and Company on the hill. Personally I grew up at the Beach, and if I saw oil wells just off the coast my first interest would have been to swim out to see what was going on, and then I would have become a petro engineer so I could work on them and make booku dollares flying around the world helping out. Give the oil companies the money, and when we run out of oil in 4-500 years they'll have figured out something else by then, 'til then, fund the fuckers...there you go J., keeping the rating...